a mechanical Tribal?

[usagi_tetsu]

Yeah, I know, "what's that weirdo usagi talking about now? Has he gotten too much sun?" It's not me (and I can't get too much sun, it's the rainy season in Iraq... this place sucks, I really think Allah hates the Muslims), it's actually someone else who posted this (http://www.air-powered.com/index.php?showtopic=30759) over on the Autococker Internet Resource forum. Seeing "Tribal" in his title, I just had to take a look and what he proposed made my little 40watt dimbulb go off in my brain.

What do you technically-more-proficient-than-me people think? To me, it sounds like it could work, but I am definitely no expert. Would a trigger pulled back in the heat of paintball hold the ram forward long enough to properly fire a paintball at speed? Or would this idea suffer from fatal short-stroking?

[goose]

i think it would be very easy to do. here is 2 thoughts

1. something to look at is the trayless mod like they make for bko's it will take 3/4 on an inch off the profile and it re-routs the air to a grip mounted noid. instead of using a noid you use a palmer frame like usagi was saying and the 3 way mech will work it perfectly.

2. another option is to use a tub from darnell and mount a block inside for the 3 way to mount to it (i.m sure darnell can whip it up for ya)
you then run a longer trigger from the frame up into the tub like a hinge trigger and put a hole in it for the actuator rod which would have to be a very short one

you could use a slider or a hinge either one. if you used a slider it would need to be tucked up in the tub. if you use a hinge you just need a taller tab to go up into the tub

3 holes in the body and 3 holes in the mech 3 way. can't get much easier then that
its just a matter of running them to the coresponding holes. one is output pressure from your front lpr, one is back and one is forward. a noid is nothing more then an electronic 3 way it still works the same way.

the only down fall is it would be open bolt but it would be very, very simple to do
and i think your triggers range of motion would be exceptionally short with a pamer quick <<>>ch if you use a long hinge trigger.

chopping i do not thing would be an issue at all since it would be open bolt
so would that technically makes it mechnopneumatic instead of electropneumatic

that will be 100 for consulting fees and design specs lmao. if i am not mistaken though i think shifty has a few bodies forsale too :guitarist

[shiftycastro]

that is true ........ freaking shameless plug .

i have a extra body that ill sell you for cheap just for this.... no frame just the body

[usagi_tetsu]

Shameless Tribal Whore! =D

Would you happen to have a ram as well?

[JaKaL]

Honestly, I think it would "work" but it would SUCK to shoot and to play with unless you did a LOT of research and experimentation in order to overcome the "dwell" issue. The human body is simply not consistant enough - especially in a stressful situation like a paintball game - to take full control of both the valve and bolt's action in one motion. The gun would suffer from EXTREME velocity swings, probably the most horrible efficiency ever seen in a paintgun, and just an overall weirdness to shoot.

The reason electros work well is because the electronics control most of the guns actual "firing" functions.

The reason pneumatic mags work well is because the dwell and bolt reset is controlled by mechanical means (springs/on-off/etc.) and the actual sear is the only thing controlled pneumatically.

I think it's a cool idea, and COULD work if you're willing to devote a lot of effort and thought. However, if you're expecting a truly useful gun with a relatively low amount of work to get up and running, I think you'll be sorely disappointed.

On the other hand, if you're really into it, have nothing much to do in your free time, are willing to devote much time, money, and trial-and-error, and expect to be disappointed (but "pleasantly suprised" if you CAN play with it) - GO FOR IT!!!
And post pictures.
And video.
And make me one! :)

[sewermonsterBW]

BTW the Tribal bodies are nearly identical to the Bob LOng Mileniums, which were mechanical, bolt design, chambers and measurments are identical to the tribal, i am sure with some patch work and milling, you could mate them (perhaps easier said than done)

[shiftycastro]

well he has bought the bodie ,frame, ram off me .......... hes getting devoted

[goose]

i honetly do not believe it would be that dificult... i have made pneumatic assisted pumps before that were a hell of a lot more work.

the only main areas of modification are the tub and the trigger
buy a cheep non anodised tub fram darnell
tap 2 holes throught it.

chop up and old $2.00 cocker block (who doesn;t have an old one laying around) this gives you a threaded 3 way point. drill 2 holes in the block section your using.. thread it and put 2 screws in from the bottom of the tub into the block to hold it in place.

mount your 3 way. throw a cheep coller on it and a cheep actuator rod.

now comes the dificult point. calculating the radius of the trigger. that will be the hardest part and even that is not all that hard if you have a cad program.

it will work quite easily i believe. just my thoughts though...not that i was ever a mechanical/design engineer or anything for several years. :buttrock:

you think there is trial and error to a 10,000 lb crane.......noooooo its just a mater of doing up a model on a cad system with the right rendering tools

any release of autocad 2002i and up will have that. once you have the drawing to scale you figure out the range of motion and then you get your radius so you will know how long the arm needs to be

with a palmer quickswitch your only talking .06 mm between the barbs. that equates to about .02 on the other end of a hinge trigger. the trigger length is 3 times that of the part that will be in the frame as the hinge point or fulcrum is at the top of your frame so if you have a 1 1/2 inch trigger from fulcrum point to the very end of it and the tab is only sticking up 1/2 inch from the fulcrum then you cut your range of motin in 1/3rd so we will say a palmer quich swith has a total range of motion of .12 mm so the total range of motion needed for the trigger would be .04

now tell me that would be a hard mech to walk........NOT the ram will rock it forward a bit but no more then it does already. it will perform the same as it does now and will have the same characteristics as it does not but you will have a .04 mm range of mothin rather then a mouse click at .01 or .02 mm

if your use to a mech though like some of us are it will actually feel more natural for ya it will be interesting to see how it turns out...i might have to go pick up a cheap bko myself now just to see how easy it would be as they already have a large tray on them

[~kaos~]

BTW the Tribal bodies are nearly identical to the Bob LOng Mileniums, which were mechanical, bolt design, chambers and measurments are identical to the tribal, i am sure with some patch work and milling, you could mate them (perhaps easier said than done)
Actually the bodies are close copies of the Autococker..... If memory serves me correctly I believe Rich (me262) turned a Cocker into a Tribal & a Tribal into a Cocker a few years back, had pics and everything.

[shiftycastro]

i remember that ...... i think warped was having one done or something..... never knew he completed it or not

[warpedmephisto]

Yeah, was basicaly an Excalibur mixed with a halfblock cocker. Don't know what ever happened with it though.

As far as the mechanical, or pneumatic really, Tribal goes there's a few ways to go about it. One being making a prestored amount of air reserved for the ram that when the trigger is pulled, the stored air is exhausted into the ram causing it to go forward and make things happen. Just use some type of simple on/off to make a tiny dump chamber for the air for the forward cycle of the ram. Then either have some way to exhaust it when the ram reaches its forward position (you'll be relying soley on the momentum of the hammer then). Then either have a spring return, or some type of fancy little pneumatic return that doesn't interfere with the venting.

Another way would be to balance the valve spring and valve pressure with the ram pressures to where the forward momentum of the hammer opens the valve, but the poppet characteristics of the valve make itself close, even if pressure is applied to the ram. This is sometimes seen on Tribals that I tune when I use the solenoid's manual override.

I'm sorry if that didn't quite make sense, but I have some good ideas in my head. Its been a long day and its getting late.

[JaKaL]

I wasn't so much talking about the mecanical aspects of making it sortof work. I'm talking about making it really playable. Making the trigger parts, etc, so that it mecanically functions are one thing - tuning it well enough so that it doesn't either shoot at 100 fps or blow an entire 45ci tank (exaggeration) out the barrel each shot is another thing entirely.

I think that it'd be relatively easy to bodge togher a semi-functional prototype, but even warped is talking about balancing the pressures/springs and routing exausts... you know how much time and experience that stuff takes?

[k.macocker]

Hello, I am the one who started this whole delima, lol.
I am going to see how it works with the ram resting on the valve. I am not sure but that is the first step in the process. I know that a pump cocker hits the valve and the hammer spring tension remains pushing on the valve until it is manually cocked. But that is most likely not nearly as much pressure as the ram will be creating.
My thoughts:
-locate the 3 way directly behind the trigger
-if consistancy is an issue I have thought maybe the responsive trigger from a tip98 to snap the trigger back forward after each trigger pull. it would also then be adjustable.
-tap the holes where the noid mounts for barbs.
-one goal is to keep the tribal looking as much like a tribal as much as possible.
-I would like to use the shortest 3 way in existance, the shocktech bomb (imo).
-and any and everything is subject to change as the project moves forward, lol.

these are my intial thoughts, so tell me what you think.
I believe goose is talking of making a bushy version, that sounds really great!!

K.mac

[goose]

noo if i was to make one i would use a tribal with a tub i mearly mentioned that the busy already has a large tray

[usagi_tetsu]

Some of you think it's not going to happen, some of you doubted it'd ever go anywhere (and most of you don't give a flying fornication one way or t'other), but progress has been made! K_mac has made up an adapter plate to successfully barb and hose the body where the solenoid used to make the same connection. He's posted pictures (blurry ones for now, better ones to come) and a short explanation here (http://www.pbase.com/k_macocker/my_tribal_project_electro_to_mechanical), go check 'em out.

Soon to come: k_mac will be using a 'cocker as a surrogate controller for testing purposes. He's already made the ram move forward and back just by placing the front and back hoses off a working 'cocker 4-way onto the appropriate barbs on the adapter plates. With a fully working lower tube (LPR, HPR, inlets, and valve), we're expecting to be able to fully operate the Tribal itself with only a 4-way and trigger frame surrogate from a 'cocker, with all air supplied by the Tribal itself. We're still testing with the surrogate, as we want to see how much and what mods need to be done to the internals of a Tribal frame before we go to cutting and rearranging. Hopefully, we'll be able to actually shoot paint from a fully mechanical Tribal and start testing to see if the problems we've thought of so far crop up, namely velocity and the effects of short- and long-stroking on said velocity.

Pray for our sanities, brothers.

[DarkStar]

In order to make this mod Playable (re: SAFE!) you need to put some kind of pulse valve between the Actuater Valve and the ram. A pulse valve will release a set amount of air each time it's activated. So the solenoid would activate the pulse valve, then the pulse valve would vent X Volume of air to the ram.

The only problem I see is i'm not sure how the ram would vent. I don't know if the pulse valve will allow that. I've got a few off the shelf parts from clippard that I've got to test this very issue. Just havn't had enough spare time to actually get it done..

-MR

[outreach]

i have seen a tribal with a mech cocker frame on it i cant remember were though but it was one ugly mother

[shiftycastro]

you might be thinking of my old twister....... had a wgp frame on it with a tub made out of the single trigger frame.
had a homemade roller trigger on it as well as morlock......hella fast.

[outreach]

i dont think it was yours shifty it had a axe triger on it *shudders , i despise them

[shiftycastro]

yea that was it........he put a little roller in the hump that comes out..... was a axe.

very fugly..... but was a definate sleeper gun

[outreach]

lol nice shifty

[usagi_tetsu]

In order to make this mod Playable (re: SAFE!) you need to put some kind of pulse valve between the Actuater Valve and the ram. A pulse valve will release a set amount of air each time it's activated. So the solenoid would activate the pulse valve, then the pulse valve would vent X Volume of air to the ram.

The only problem I see is i'm not sure how the ram would vent. I don't know if the pulse valve will allow that. I've got a few off the shelf parts from clippard that I've got to test this very issue. Just havn't had enough spare time to actually get it done..

-MR

Yeah that's what we're afraid of with the short- and long-stroking issues. 1) If I don't hold the trigger back long enough, will I have shootdown? 2) If I hold the trigger back too long, will I boost my velocity and hot shot? Gotta get to the point where we can test it all over a chrony, though. If we find that with a straight trigger-controlled 4-way (like a 'cocker setup) these problems do exist, we're looking into doing something similar to a 'mag pneuframe. Instead of just tripping a sear, and returning, the ram can will be attached to the 4-way's actuating rod and we can time it down exactly to how long it'll stay back before returning to set.

[~kaos~]

The only problem I see is i'm not sure how the ram would vent.
Three letters....... Q E V

[usagi_tetsu]

Actually, we are planning on testing with a QEV at each end singly, and then a matched pair to see how that works out.

[DarkStar]

Three letters....... Q E V

A QEV Requires pressure to drop behind it before it can vent. Unfortunately, it can't initiate the sequence.

It's definately doable.. However I havn't planned out in full how I want to lay it out.

There should be some good prior art if you dig through Have Blue's Patent List. There have been at least 2 guns that were air ram based and fully mechanical. If only I hadn't rotted my brain with drugs I might be able to remember the markers names right now uggg...

-MR

[~kaos~]

A QEV Requires pressure to drop behind it before it can vent. Unfortunately, it can't initiate the sequence.
If you're using a pulse valve isn't the lull between pulses enough to allow for psi drop & venting?

[DarkStar]

If you're using a pulse valve isn't the lull between pulses enough to allow for psi drop & venting?


My gut fealing is that will only work with too low of a pressure to actually move the RAM Fast enough to fire the marker. But I suppose the only way to know is test it. I started putting together my test bench. I'll try that setup at a few different pressure and see what happens.

-MR