Almost

[usagi_tetsu]

I apologize in advance for the rant and negative tone, but I had to "purge my spleen" somewhere.


So this last weekend, I actually went and played some paintball. I know, it's like the 2nd or 3rd time this year the planets have come into alignment in my life and allowed me a day of play. I was as shocked as you are right now. My wife was having her first (yes, first of several - her friends and family are neurotic) baby shower, my sister was in town for that and dragging my new brother-in-law with her, so it was decided that the guys could escape the insanity by going off and flinging a little paint. And fling paint we, um, actually, didn't. Sharing a case of 2000 with my bro, we still managed to bring 9 full pods back after about 4 hours of playing regular games. To say we weren't doing all that well is an understatement, but we still had tons of fun. The follow-up has been planned and all you guys out in the St Louis area watch this space for that game as we'll be playing out that way next time.

Anyway, as I'm chatting with one of the guys I'm playing with/against there at the field, we get to talking about markers we have in our stable. Turns out he has the same taste in classic mechanical beasties as we both had Automag Classics in the gearbag, but it's his current marker that grabs my attention - the Empire/Invert Mini. I'd seen some of the ads and announcements of it and hadn't really given it a second though, but seeing how tiny and light it is in person was a different experience. These things are screamingly tiny and light, unbelievably so except in person. This gets me kind of interested in what's available currently in the world of electoflingers, and I start watching the TechPB.com series of videos on YouTube, specifically all of the reviews and technical shows. And the itch to play tourney speedball again starts up, right in the middle of my back. You know that spot, the place that's hard to reach and sure to drive you to distraction, so I scratch it and start watching the tourney footage from the TechPB.com guys, and what do I see? Everything that made me get out of it in the first place: too much reliance on ramping/3-round board modes, too much paint in the air, too little movement, and the whining, bitching, and moaning over every elimination. *sigh* The whining! Always the damn, constant whining with these kids! Does anyone just have fun playing speedball these days without having to win all the time? Anyone? *feh*

Almost, tourney speedball, you almost had me back, but you lost me again when I saw that you really hadn't changed, just made the technology more affordable.

[~kaos~]

Yeah... isn't that strange. When you quit it you knew it was for a damn good reason and that you had had enough. A few years go by and you wonder why you ever quit, everyone looks to be having fun. I guess I'll consider myself lucky then... all I need to do is hear the little shits talk or post online using their wanna be gangsta thug pimp-mister middle class white boi crap and I know why I'm not playing tourney. Of course being fucking old accounts for a little bit of it too........

[DeuceX]

Exactly why I hate playing at big fields. Back in the day I used to get all my friends together for a weekend at my parents house where I had my own speedball and woods courses set up. Everybody eventually sold their gear and found other things to interest them. I think the reason I haven't played in so long is I'm afraid to run into all the whining and bs at a new field. Oh, I never have time and money to spend too haha. All my money goes to paying bills, and every once in awhile I'll sneak in a new part for my car.

[usagi_tetsu]

What can I say, just tired of the BS. I had some hopes for the SPPL - actual limited ROF rules thru hopper/feeder restrictions, woodsball playing fields, etc - but one of my buds up here played the SPPL game (could have been a qualifier, who knows?) down at DropZone and it sounds very much like I'm going to have to travel to get some decent SPPL action, as the DZ game sounded like so much suck on a cold plate. *sigh* I've got to get out of the midwest and closer to the coasts, there's just not enough population density in these parts to really support my various hobbies.

[~kaos~]

*sigh* I've got to get out of the midwest and closer to the coasts, there's just not enough population density in these parts to really support my various hobbies.
That's why porn surfing is so popular in the midwest.... no beach required.

[usagi_tetsu]

Ha. Come on, I am married, but we've only been married two years and don't have any kids yet (next month!), so the flame is still there and the porn is only necessary when the Army sends me somewhere for longer than 3 days.

Miracle of miracles, I played again this past weekend, and you guys should have been there: the AGGlets ('cause there's always some that show up to rental rec-play to get some easy "muppet mowing" in) were not worth their personalized team jerseys. And extra whiney. Why is it that even though I warn people by wearing my Doc's Machine "I CLUB Cheaters (http://www.docsmachine.com/tees/teegraphics/cheaterhatbutton.jpg)" to the field, they get pissed off when I call them out on their cheating ways?

For example, Jaeger's (http://www.jaegers.com/) does not allow any shooting under 20 feet (ie: no bunkering), so you have to at least give them the chance to surrender and if they choose not to then you can light them up. One of the games I push the right tape hard off the break, managing to push past midfield and cut off my opponents from using most of the field. One of the aforementioned AGGlets slides into a bunker a minute into the game not 10 feet away from me, leaving his butt hanging out the back of the bunker in my direction, totally unaware of where I'm at. I yell, as loudly as an Army sergeant can, offering him surrender - no response. Put one paintball into his pack and watch it break, but chucklehead continues to fire out the other side of the bunker, so I put one into his back. This one breaks also, and the kid starts running for his own backfield. For those of you who haven't played in KC's infamous paintball caves at Jaeger's, the indoor fields are old limestone mining caverns, so half the field's bunkers are made of these 20 feet wide stone pillars, which means there's plenty of places to hide. Our little AGGlet wasn't running to get off the field; he was, as I've seen all too often, running to get out of sight to wipe off my hits and reenter the game on the other side of the field. What about the refs? There's usually only one ref, and the field is large enough and filled with enough visual obstacles that unless it happens within 20 feet of the ref, he ain't going to see it.

So genius starts running directly away from me, not even attempting to signal that he was marked not once but twice, and I just lay into him until he finally raises his hand and marker in surrender. Immediately after the game, I am accosted by the little shite and one of his buddies who was working as a ref, and they start whining and howling about me not following the 20 foot rule, overshooting, and, I think, causing cancer in society at large. While this is going on, I'm peeling off my mask and beanie hat, pod pack, and finally my jersey to reveal the "I CLUB Cheaters" shirt. Now, I'm not a big guy (5'8", 180lbs - as average as you can get), but I am in decent shape and Army trained, which neither of these two kids looked like they could run farther than 100 feet at a time unless it involved a Twinkie at the finish line (hence why I was gaining such easy upperhands thru field position off the break), and I turn up the Sergeant Glare to an 11 and lay it on both of them. They eventually stop talking and I explain the situation to them, and inform the ref that if he wants to enforce any of his threats for my "misbehaviors" (ie: booting me off the field), I'd be glad to discuss it with him and the owners. The ref decided his friend wasn't worth his part time job of field ref, and dropped the matter and the AGGlet disappeared back into his pack of buddies who attempted to turn the stink eye on me for the rest of the day. Sticks and stones, kids, sticks and stones.

Funny thing is, after that game, I had no problems the rest of the day with anyone accepting a request to surrender. Probably had to do with I was hot at that point, so every time I yelled "SURRENDER!" it got a little of the Sergeant Command Voice, and was quickly obeyed.

[outreach]

the agglets have pretty much vacated our field, they come they get shot they cheat then are met with an 18bps spazm of paint they walk off the field, they cry, then are told to suck it up. they leave and never come back lol
moral of the story: ego mag> agg kid with shocker
odd how the agg kids see no problem with thier cheating, and tell you not to bitch when you catch them at it, but as soon as they fail at it and get lit up they cry about it for the rest of the day, then dinounce your field even though its the only decent field around

[Edwin]

I'll have to read this when I have a little more time....USAGI put enough time into typing this long as post....someone might as well read it. :)

[usagi_tetsu]

Thanks Ed!

outreach - It's the whole AGG culture in a nutshell that bothers me: how do I fix a problem (namely: not winning)? Throw money at it. Practice more and improve my skills? *pffft* Hell no! Who would want to waste time practicing when you could be winning? Because winning is everything and 2nd place is merely first place for losers, and losers should be ground up into Soylent Green brand energy bars.

*rolls eyes* And the fields themselves are between the proverbial rock and a hard place. On one hand they want to make money, and the AGGlets do spend a lot of money, but on the other hand, allowing them to run rampant on the rec-ball field with your renters tends to discourage repeat business, albeit low margin income. Going back to DropZone's solution (no agitated/force fed hoppers on the rec-play field with the renters, that conversation can be found here (http://www.tribal-paintball.com/tog/showthread.php?t=2058)), I personally didn't make it out there this year, so I don't know how well that experiment worked out for them.

[~kaos~]

Jaegers.... that reminds me of a story. Me and my oldest son Randy were playing there in the caves. Things were fairly balanced except for this one wise ass on the other side. He was wearing a white t-shirt, which is one reason we took notice (jaegers field paint is white fill). The guy has 'ok' skills but always seems to be the last guy in. And similar to what Usagi said we noticed this guy would bounce from side to side by running way back. So me and Randy split the field one game for a better look. I talk to Randy after I he says he got the guy twice and then the guy ran back and went to my side... I confirmed his appearance about mid game. I swore I shot the guy at least once myself but he never left. So we decided to got after the sob.... We found where the guy was and made a good push, Randy nailed the guy 3 times in the chest and twice in the back as he ran away. Randy ran after him while I covered him, catching him on the backside of one of those 20 foot columns (and a dead end). As I catch up to Randy I hear a shitload of yelling..... seems the little asswad hid behind a guy and his girlfriend. When Randy told them all to surrender the guy and girl accepted while the little shit behind them refused and tried to shoot Randy.... so Randy lit'em all up from about 10' away. Randy was still fairly young so at 3 on 1 he wasn't doing so well. I'm not the biggest guy in the world but I make up for some of it with my enthusiastic behavior and colorful language. I pointed out to the couple that the little shit had used them as a shield/bunker and that Randy was well within the rules by what he did, and that if they wanted to be mad and someone it should be the idiot behind them. They still wern't too happy so I added... if you don't like the rule don't play. Shithead tried to walk away during our discussion but we caught him before he left the field and we told him to his face.... we know you're cheating so we're coming after you every fucking game till you leave. He left 2 games later.

[mustangii]

Once out at PGP when I still had my X7 with reactive trigger. We were out just haveing a good time then the agglets came in and all they wanted to do was play speedball. well cranked the reactive trigger up to 20rps and just walked back and forth along the back tape and showered paint. They lefted and complained to the ref( friend of mine). He asked then what they were complaining about, didn't they like being out shoot by a 50 year old with a semi?:doh:
edm

[~kaos~]

Once out at PGP when I still had my X7 with reactive trigger. We were out just haveing a good time then the agglets came in and all they wanted to do was play speedball. well cranked the reactive trigger up to 20rps and just walked back and forth along the back tape and showered paint. They lefted and complained to the ref( friend of mine). He asked then what they were complaining about, didn't they like being out shoot by a 50 year old with a semi?:doh:
edm
*lol*..... I don't think they would have minded so much had you been in the latest speedball clown suit and was sporting the latest & greatest sparkling million dollar paintsprayer. Yeah, they would have probably overlooked the age thing. But my guess is you probably were wearing some camo pants, a Lynard Skynard t-shirt, boots or tennies and your x7 was probably flat black. The only thing worse would have been eliminating them with a Talon. Way to go....:kickedin:

[mustangii]

Camo pants, jungle boots, and a black t shirt with the same design as my avatar, but 12" in diameter on the back. The x7 had a red JCS power tube all the techt upgrades on the cyclone, and an opsgear 20" barrel. Not the typical speedball gun. But on reactive they couldn't even poke their hedas around the edge of the bunker. Wish I would have had the e frame on it they will do 30 rps.:goofball: :)
edm

[usagi_tetsu]

...He was wearing a white t-shirt, which is one reason we took notice (jaegers field paint is white fill)....

Huh. One of the AGGlets from this last weekend (the one I nearly knocked off his feet with only my voice and Sergeant Command Voice) was wearing a white t-shirt as well, and I even explained to my lovely wife how that particular cheat had appeared in the tourney world and was eventually squashed. Who woulda thunk that I'd see the exact same thing at the exact same field by undoubtedly brand new cheaters? *feh* The more things change, the more they stay the effing same.

Now, having vented my spleen all over the AGGlets, I do have to relate my experience with one young lad that impressed me that very same day. He was toting a Proto SLG (I had to ask him what it was, can't keep up with all the electroflingers out there these days) but no fancy jersey and couldn't really tell you if he was wearing a "wicked" mask or not, and I seem to remember a lower end ViewLoader hopper. Anyway, there was never any question of whether or not he was wiping, he never pulled the trigger more than two or three times when firing a string, and he actually listened to the advice from older, wiser heads (namely me... yeah, I realize that could get him committed for suicidal tendencies, but I behaved myself, honest!). And he communicated with his teammates! If I had my wits about me (I'm always leaving them in the couch at home, right next to my car keys), I would have gotten his email address and invited him to join the TOG or, at the least, M Carter Brown. And he was like 14 or 15, not very old at all. A great asset to the sport, and I utterly failed to congratulate him on his maturity. *sigh* How are we ever to grow this sport if we can't get the bad eggs to leave and encourage the good eggs to keep it up?

[~kaos~]

We must find these young sprouts and care for them. Make sure we feed them a healthy diet
of TOG fertilizer so they grow into big strong AGGlet killing machines..... it's their only true path.

[outreach]

i found a few players up here that are fairly decent, the one kid on my team is like 14/15 if he continues to excel the way he has been he might make pro lol a dream thats virtually impossible in canada XD takes directions well and has crazy natural skill hes getting taller though wich may prove to be a problem in the future trying to hide in those really smll bunkers theyve been using latelly. but the rec players that come to the field and play speedball, we split them up evenly one the teams and try and pair them with the better players so they can get direct and dont go into omfg mode and cowar in a bunker. pairing them with good players brings there confidence up alot funny how the he will save me if im getting shot at theory works for them

[usagi_tetsu]

Sorry to bring an older post out of retirement, but I had to relate a story from earlier this week. We had a surprise practice in my other hobby (beating each other with sticks) Monday night as a couple of fellow hobbyists up from Arkansas had broken down on I-29 when they attempted to return home from an event up in Nebraska. While waiting for their rescue ride to show up, they asked our local group if we could provide some frustration relief in the form of rattan swinging, and like all good rattan junkies, we leapt into action. I had heard of one of the gentlemen (and bought armour from him via the internet), but had never met his squire. Funny thing is, his squire rolls in with an older style JT rolling bag carrying all of his armour, and his forearm and elbow pads are made by NXE. He's also wearing a little gold Shoebox Shocker pendant around his neck. I perk up, and while we're putting armour on for the eventual beat-down, I'm asking about his paintball experience while he's asking about mine. I like the SCA and paintball so much, that my badge (a small picture that denotes ownership in medieval times and the SCA) basically looks like a paintball splat, and is fairly obvious to other paint flingers.

Anyway, turns out that back in the day (as in, when the Shoebox Shocker was THE tourney gun), he was on a pro team, and also worked for JT for about 5 years. He had given it up for many, many years but was working his way back to getting a team together to compete in the '09 NPPL... and of course that league folded about a month ago. He still had already picked up plenty of gear and fellow enthusiasts in the Fayetteville area, and was going to start looking into more local/regional tourneys to tide them over until a new league had replaced the NPPL. At this point, I related my usual reason for not playing tourneys: I can't afford to buy that much paint for one weekend anymore. When I left tourney speedball, the electros were just coming into good reliability with eyes and force-fed hoppers, and it was still getting expensive to play in the tourneys. The paint I see flowing nowadays is far beyond ridiculous, and I just don't have the spare $$$ to do that kind of flinging anymore.

He came back with (and the whole point of this long post) "I just don't have the hate anymore. It takes a lot of hatred of the other guy, no matter who he is, to want to fling that kind of paint at him. These days, I just play for fun." I liked the first part the best - I just don't have the hate. Sorry the lead up to the important bits of my story were so long, it's just the way I type.

Enjoy, and don't let the hate overwhelm you!

[~kaos~]

Well if you ever take up residence out this way before I start collecting social security we can form a team and use nothing but non-electros. You know we both been there done that so it won't be new to us, but I bet it would make some of the opposition wonder what the hell we're up to....
Hell... you should see the looks I get and hear the questions I get asked when I take an Autococker to a scenario out here. The only guys that have a clue of what I have are the pump players.

[Spitlebug]

Hey usagi_tetsu,

The guy you met... that wasn't Speedyhog was it? He used to work for JTUSA/BE back in the day. He left just shortly after they released the Quadra and all those other really ugly looking markers.

[usagi_tetsu]

Hey usagi_tetsu,

The guy you met... that wasn't Speedyhog was it? He used to work for JTUSA/BE back in the day. He left just shortly after they released the Quadra and all those other really ugly looking markers.

Really couldn't tell you, Spitle, I didn't have long to talk to him and while I think I misheard it, I think his name is Mark. We were in a bit of a rush, getting armour on and swinging rattan at each other and whatnot. I doubt I'll see him before June, but if I remember to, I'll ask him.

Kaos - I'd be up for that... if we could find a mechanicals/pumps-only tourney series out there. They actually have a section in I think it was the Midwest Tourney Series that was mech only, but after playing in it for all of a season or two, we'd have to move up into 15bps electro. *feh*

[~kaos~]

Kaos - I'd be up for that... if we could find a mechanicals/pumps-only tourney series out there. They actually have a section in I think it was the Midwest Tourney Series that was mech only, but after playing in it for all of a season or two, we'd have to move up into 15bps electro. *feh*
I've got no problem going mech against electro's capped at 15bps.....

[Spitlebug]

I guess you guys are just as much of a paintball geezer as I am. Last I checked they moved the BPS cap on almost all tourneys to 10bps w/ramp.

Time to dust off the old Revvy (and I've got a really nice one too :) ).

[~kaos~]

I guess you guys are just as much of a paintball geezer as I am. Last I checked they moved the BPS cap on almost all tourneys to 10bps w/ramp.
Time to dust off the old Revvy (and I've got a really nice one too :) ).
10bps!!?? YOU gotta be kidding...... we'll then I've got no problem being competitive with my Cocker then. Bill could probably get one of his Mags to even exceed that.

[usagi_tetsu]

10bps!!?? YOU gotta be kidding...... we'll then I've got no problem being competitive with my Cocker then. Bill could probably get one of his Mags to even exceed that.

Who needs a 'mag when I can outshoot a 12v Revvy with a Model 98 Custom? *evil grin*

And I really haven't paid attention to the tourney series, as I still thought they were 13bps with some allowing 3 round burst, and others allowing ramping. Why they continue the farce that ramping is better than full auto and just go full auto with whatever bps cap they want, is beyond me. Waving your fingers at a trigger in a random manner to keep firing is no safer or controlled than a full auto "hold the trigger down to keep firing, let up to stop".

[~kaos~]

Why they continue the farce that ramping is better than full auto and just go full auto with whatever bps cap they want, is beyond me. Waving your fingers at a trigger in a random manner to keep firing is no safer or controlled than a full auto "hold the trigger down to keep firing, let up to stop".
Yeah, but having 'ramp' requires that you move your fingers in some lame-ass uncontrollable walking like motion to produce a smooth continued burst. It gives those uncoordinated AGGlets the allusion and false sense of accomplishment to have mastered walking of the trigger.... something that each must have on their resumes. After all, even an old PB geezer like me can hold a trigger and shoot f/a..... how damaging would that be to their fragile psyche. *LOL*

[Spitlebug]

Yeah they dropped it to 10bps max. Lower divisions are mechanical only. This means that the lower divisions will probably get sandbagged with experienced guys who can run-and-gun.

Most tourneys still require ramping only, but I believe they are discussing semi-auto with 10bps max.

[~kaos~]

Yeah they dropped it to 10bps max. Lower divisions are mechanical only. This means that the lower divisions will probably get sandbagged with experienced guys who can run-and-gun.
Most tourneys still require ramping only, but I believe they are discussing semi-auto with 10bps max.
It may start off with the mech only divisions getting overloaded with experienced players but after a successful season those teams move up.
And at the cost of showing my old schoolness again I've never heard of a tourney requiring ramp only.....? I just would find this intriguing because a mech in the hands of a decent player could actually outshoot an electro capped at 10bps. That makes my Cockers and Ricochet hoppers high end tourney equip once again.

[Spitlebug]

It may start off with the mech only divisions getting overloaded with experienced players but after a successful season those teams move up.
And at the cost of showing my old schoolness again I've never heard of a tourney requiring ramp only.....? I just would find this intriguing because a mech in the hands of a decent player could actually outshoot an electro capped at 10bps. That makes my Cockers and Ricochet hoppers high end tourney equip once again.

Yeah if you ask me the ramping only is probably just to sell more boards...

In regards to the mech out shooting an electro capped at ten, it is possible and that is why I see the lower divisions getting sandbagged. However, I don't think that pnuematic markers are considered mech. Otherwise you might have guys with 'Mags and A5's w/response triggers flogging that they are mech markers and passing the one pull one shot rule.

[~kaos~]

However, I don't think that pnuematic markers are considered mech. Otherwise you might have guys with 'Mags and A5's w/response triggers flogging that they are mech markers and passing the one pull one shot rule.
Really? I might be in my own little world but down here most players consider 'mech' to be anything that doesn't use a battery and/or requires no use of any type of electronics to fire a p'ball. However, in addition, the one p'ball per one complete trigger pull is also part of that rule. (complete trigger pull is equal to the pull back and the return forward to the original position.) Anything that produces more than one p'ball shot during a complete trigger pull would not be considered "mech". I believe the proper title for that might be ASSISTED?

[Spitlebug]

Really? I might be in my own little world but down here most players consider 'mech' to be anything that doesn't use a battery and/or requires no use of any type of electronics to fire a p'ball. However, in addition, the one p'ball per one complete trigger pull is also part of that rule. (complete trigger pull is equal to the pull back and the return forward to the original position.) Anything that produces more than one p'ball shot during a complete trigger pull would not be considered "mech". I believe the proper title for that might be ASSISTED?

I suppose you could consider a response trigger assisted, however it would be no different than a pneumatic return spring instead of a compression spring for the trigger. Technically the trigger does fully return, but is more of a pneumatically induced return. It's definitely a Grey area.

[~kaos~]

After reading several reviews and sources it is clear that the RT system would not be classified as a mechanical marker here. Regardless of the absence of electronics and/or battery the RT system allows the user to hold the trigger in one fixed position and fire repeatedly. That violates the semi-auto description of one ball per pull. It would be the same deal for a non RT mech set-up that 'bounced'... not allowed.

[Charger]

but what about a phematic mag... they should be tournament legal and can fire 15+bps..

[~kaos~]

bps is irrelevant when determining whether or not the marker is considered mechanical or semi-auto.
Lets address one at a time starting with semi-auto. Semi-auto as it relates to PB is one trigger pull producing one fired paintball. If you are able to hold your finger in any fixed position of the trigger pull and fire more than one paintball is is not accepted as being semi-auto. The common term(s) for that are runaway trigger or excessive trigger bounce. Neither is allowed in an event hosted as semi only.
The term 'mechanical' is gunna be a little tougher as it will allow for some personal interpretation. Keep in mind, we are only addressing the trigger (firing mechanism). My theory on a traditional mechanical trigger is that the entire movement involves physical moving of "machined" parts touching or attached to another. Pneumatics introduces an extra element of air flow to assist mechanical movement. That's why I and some others refer to the action as "assisted".
Ok, i release the soapbox to the next person...........:kickedin: