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View Full Version : Let's have a technical discussion


Spitlebug
11-24-2008, 11:10 AM
Alright, so let's have a discussion on the internals of Tribal markers. Starting from front to back.

First the stock Tribal uses an AOC which is essentially a non adjustable LPR. Let's just assume the AOC sucks and that no one uses it unless they are desperate. I assume you guys use a bevvy of other aftermarket LPR like the TILPR/AOC LPC and LPRC's. Maybe even 'Cocker LPRs and MicroRocks.

Valve spring. Is this a long or short spring? Straight compression or conical style? Anyone know the spring force on the stock spring? I am assuming you guys also use 'Cocker spring kits for this in an aftermarket setup.

Valve stem and valve body. This is where my knowledge gets a little fuzzy. It seems to me that the Tribal has some kind of soft insert behind the stock valve? Is this correct? Also what style of valve does the Tribal use because it looks to me like they use a 'Cocker style valve where there is a "protrusion" out the very back of the valve. How many people actually use this valve or are aftermarket valves with a flush backing more commonplace?

Hammer. The stock hammer is funny looking. There is a "recess" in the front of the hammer and I assume that is due to the stock valve design? Would it be fair to assume that the depth of the "recess" is where a flush faced hammer should terminate with the valve pin? Pull pin groove in the hammer is quite deep.

Ram shaft. Given that the groove on the hammer is quite deep one can only assume that the threading on the ram shaft is small-ish. Probably something like 8-32 or 6-32. I will have to take a ram apart to figure out just what is going on there. Very minor concern. Do you guys use the FSDO spring on all your rams?

Ram housing. Here is the meat and potatoes of the ram itself. By the looks of things, the outlet (A and B) ports of the solenoid/manifold exit on either side of the middle O-ring. The return stroke seems to use the most amount of air given that there is quite a distance between the outlet port of the solenoid and the porting in the front half of the ram housing. This can be mitigated in a few ways so I am not overly concerned with that. The forward stroke is pretty simple.

-In your guy's opinion how is the stock ram for porting? Do you typically port your rams for better flow?
-I am also assuming because of the design of the ram, the front of the housing butts up against a portion of the marker body to stop the forward travel. This might be a bit of a bear to deal with as typically I will want to elongate the ram so as to make the best of useable space (no rear of hammer essentially).
-Now the ram is retained within the body by a plug that also acts as the back cap of the ram. I assume I cannot go out much farther than that due to the electronics and back plate. What kind of tools do you guys prefer to get your rams out? I assume you use a slotted screw driver to get it out? Would this be beneficial to maintain or would a coin slot/slotted screw driver removal be better (is there enough room)? Would hex removal be better? Possibly an air-up locking system? Bunch of options to choose from.

Back Plate and Electronics. Don't really know much about them. I am assuming you all still use a back plate though regardless of any electronics modification.

Moving on to the upper tube.

Bolt. Stock bolt or aftermarket? Which is more common? Did I hear some people were using Bushmaster bolts?

shiftycastro
11-24-2008, 02:02 PM
Alright, so let's have a discussion on the internals of Tribal markers. Starting from front to back.

First the stock Tribal uses an AOC which is essentially a non adjustable LPR. Let's just assume the AOC sucks and that no one uses it unless they are desperate. I assume you guys use a bevvy of other aftermarket LPR like the TILPR/AOC LPC and LPRC's. Maybe even 'Cocker LPRs and MicroRocks.

Valve spring. Is this a long or short spring? Straight compression or conical style? Anyone know the spring force on the stock spring? I am assuming you guys also use 'Cocker spring kits for this in an aftermarket setup.

Valve stem and valve body. This is where my knowledge gets a little fuzzy. It seems to me that the Tribal has some kind of soft insert behind the stock valve? Is this correct? Also what style of valve does the Tribal use because it looks to me like they use a 'Cocker style valve where there is a "protrusion" out the very back of the valve. How many people actually use this valve or are aftermarket valves with a flush backing more commonplace?

Hammer. The stock hammer is funny looking. There is a "recess" in the front of the hammer and I assume that is due to the stock valve design? Would it be fair to assume that the depth of the "recess" is where a flush faced hammer should terminate with the valve pin? Pull pin groove in the hammer is quite deep.

Ram shaft. Given that the groove on the hammer is quite deep one can only assume that the threading on the ram shaft is small-ish. Probably something like 8-32 or 6-32. I will have to take a ram apart to figure out just what is going on there. Very minor concern. Do you guys use the FSDO spring on all your rams?

Ram housing. Here is the meat and potatoes of the ram itself. By the looks of things, the outlet (A and B) ports of the solenoid/manifold exit on either side of the middle O-ring. The return stroke seems to use the most amount of air given that there is quite a distance between the outlet port of the solenoid and the porting in the front half of the ram housing. This can be mitigated in a few ways so I am not overly concerned with that. The forward stroke is pretty simple.

-In your guy's opinion how is the stock ram for porting? Do you typically port your rams for better flow?
-I am also assuming because of the design of the ram, the front of the housing butts up against a portion of the marker body to stop the forward travel. This might be a bit of a bear to deal with as typically I will want to elongate the ram so as to make the best of useable space (no rear of hammer essentially).
-Now the ram is retained within the body by a plug that also acts as the back cap of the ram. I assume I cannot go out much farther than that due to the electronics and back plate. What kind of tools do you guys prefer to get your rams out? I assume you use a slotted screw driver to get it out? Would this be beneficial to maintain or would a coin slot/slotted screw driver removal be better (is there enough room)? Would hex removal be better? Possibly an air-up locking system? Bunch of options to choose from.

Back Plate and Electronics. Don't really know much about them. I am assuming you all still use a back plate though regardless of any electronics modification.

Moving on to the upper tube.

Bolt. Stock bolt or aftermarket? Which is more common? Did I hear some people were using Bushmaster bolts?

I will answer the best I can to some of your questions..........

The AOC was a hit or miss.... some were adjustable some others did not have one. It was the prize in the cracker jack box you never knew.
Only person that I have seen to make the stock AOC work is Kaos.
I use every option of lpr out there that you listed... I like to try different versions and what have you.

The spring was a short straight stiff spring... you could use cocker springs I suppose I just use the stock ones. The ideal operating pressure was 110 for the lpr so I just kept using the same springs.

I'm not sure what your asking about the valve ....sounds like you may be talking about the valve dampner. It is just a regular poppit and I myself use several kinds. I have maddman rocket , macdev sonic red, blues upgrade to your stock valve. All have worked fine for me.. I have a prototype AKA tornado valve that fits my Tribal that I want to put in eventually.

I will not comment on the ram stuff .... just not my cup of tea but I do use the ram springs on most of mine if not all of them seems to cure the FSDO.
The bolts were like the AOC's you just got whatever they gave you,.. the bushmaster bolts work the old defiant. Edwin made his own which work rather well. Along with tarantula that made there own bolts for a bit.

hope that helps

Spitlebug
11-24-2008, 03:03 PM
Yeah valve dampner. What is the deal with that? Is it that the Tribal bodies were made with too soft of an aluminum grade or a poor temper? If you don't use it, does it mess up the body?

You say the ideal pressure for the LPR is 110psi? That's huge. Most of my Bushmasters run at or around 60psi (gauged with ram gauge). Mind you, I believe the Bushmaster piston is a little larger and would make up some of that difference. The thing is that 110psi is enough pressure to propel a paintball so if you can use less volume and at a lower pressure you should see measureable gains in efficiency.

MacDev Red valve is the Bushmaster Variant? Blues upgrade to stock valve?

shiftycastro
11-24-2008, 03:43 PM
Yeah valve dampner. What is the deal with that? Is it that the Tribal bodies were made with too soft of an aluminum grade or a poor temper? If you don't use it, does it mess up the body?

You say the ideal pressure for the LPR is 110psi? That's huge. Most of my Bushmasters run at or around 60psi (gauged with ram gauge). Mind you, I believe the Bushmaster piston is a little larger and would make up some of that difference. The thing is that 110psi is enough pressure to propel a paintball so if you can use less volume and at a lower pressure you should see measureable gains in efficiency.

MacDev Red valve is the Bushmaster Variant? Blues upgrade to stock valve?

I don't use them, but I figured that's what you were talking about.
I haven't had any problems not having one in there.
Maybe because of the stock spring it's like that i really have no idea but I know thats where it likes to be at.

Yes sir I believe so they (macdev red) were made for the tribal .....but blues upgrade was enlarging hole in valve as well as trimming the excess off of the valve stem.

Spitlebug
11-24-2008, 03:51 PM
What size setscrew holds the valve in place?

~kaos~
11-25-2008, 01:05 AM
What size setscrew holds the valve in place?
I think it's the same as the b2k's

On the ram.... I did a quick eyeball and I think the Bushy ram piston is definitely larger in diameter.
Aslo, what if you enlarged (bored out) the rams venting holes in the front? Wouldn't that allow to cycle forward with less effort due to a more efficient venting process?

You could also grab a Maddman Products Cocker valve spring kit and use the 'softer' green spring. That will allow you to open the valve up with less force (less psi needed to driver the ram/hammer.

Spitlebug
11-25-2008, 01:07 AM
Hrm 3/8-24 thread...

If that is the case then most likely interior port of the marker body to pass air from the valve to the bolt is 0.332" in diameter (Q size drill bit).

Spitlebug
11-25-2008, 12:59 PM
Yeah this thing is basically on. Have contact. Will make. Best part is that that I won't charge anything more than the base cost of a new ram and I can get them pretty cheap.

Just gotta get silverbullet to get back to me on the final price + shipping.

Spitlebug
11-30-2008, 07:50 AM
With any luck that BBT will be here soon. I will get to work right away. Chances are I will have to take it on the road with me to Cold Lake Christmas break. Either way I will be working on it a lot.

Spitlebug
12-03-2008, 09:04 PM
Sweet lord, silverbullet came through. Man this marker is in good shape. A little dirty, but even the electronics work on it. Very sturdy marker. Sure don't make 'em like that anymore. I will commence working on drawings as soon as I disassemble and clean it. :)

*Edit* Yeagads I can see why you guys don't like the AOC. Also, having troubles getting the ram out. Arrrrrrgggghhhhh!!!!!