It is time to spread the wealth!!!

[Edwin]

No, I didn't win the lottery, but maybe Saturday's drawing I will.

Some of you may already know this, but many of you don't. We all know that the Tribal threads for the AOC Cap is 808-28, but what does that really mean??? Do we need to make a custom tap that will cost you $100+??? Why the fuck did Toxic Toys make such an odd ball thread size???

Well after finally spending $70 on a 'Machinery's Handbook', I figured out the problem. TT didn't use a odd ball thread, they just used a special thread that isn't that common.

The thread for the AOC Cap, Ram End Cap, and Feedneck are all the same.....

Am I sparking any interest???

Does anyone know what the actual tap and die threads are???

[amcfall]

Rahr! Interest has been peaked! Exactly how uncommon are the thgreads? How muchh we talking here? I'm assuming sin e it's standard MSC has them?

[warpedmephisto]

So what are we trying to get at here? It'd definitely be a one-off or specialty tap which would be quite costly. The closest thing that MSC has is a 13/16-28 tap, but thats still overshooting it by 0.0045". Why invest money in costly taps and dies when you can just turn the threads on a lathe much easier?

[Edwin]

Well because you can't turn ID threads unless your using a nice CNC Mill.

What I am trying to get at is that: Tribal Threads are infact 13-16-28. In most cases the OD of threads are not accurate, and it is the Thread Pitch that gives the True threads of the tap/die.

I purchased a Tap and Die for 13/16-28 and they work beautifully!!! That is how I clean out the green locktite out of the feedneck threads in the body. It doesn't cut any new material nor does it scratch off the ano,. So the .004" overshoot is just 13/16 = 0.8125, it isn't the actual max peak of the threads. When doing OD threading the peaks are usually turned down, and according to the 'Machinery's Handbook" the OD of a 13/16-28 thread can be 0.8125 to 0.8048, so the .808 is smack dab in the middle!!!!

It is still going to cost you to purchase these tap and dies, but they are right off the shelf. $30-$40 bux for a tap (import) and I paid $85 (USA) for a die.

[warpedmephisto]

So you're just trying to get away from using a CNC Mill then? Would you be using these taps and dies for machining your LPRC & feednecks? I think with that said, it'd be possible to make a body from scratch with minimal tools and machinery, although it'd take money and time...

[Edwin]

Yes the bodies are doable. But to drill something that long you would need a big mill. That's not what I am trying to do.

I still use the lathe to do the feedneck since dies aren't really made for making new threads they are used to chase or clean up the threads. I prepare the feedneck to Tribal dimensions and actually turn the threads most of the way with the lathe. Then I chase the threads with the die to get the thread all the way, since turning threads (for me) with a lathe is very hard to do without a relief.

The TILPR were made on a CNC Lathe so the threads are computer machined. The LPRCs were made on our manual lathe and we have a small relief to help with the threads. I didn't "chase" any of those threads with the dies, but if I did make more LPRC with my lathe I would use the die as it would produce a better thread (at least for my inexperience machining hands).

[warpedmephisto]

So then the question is, what exactly are you trying to do? If tooling wasn't so much, I think I'd try my hand at making some blank bodies. But I'd have to take into consideration: extra long drill bits, boring bars, taps for ball detent, all grub screw holes, valve locking hole, and of course AOC, feedneck, and ram holes, misc tooling for different body designs, etc.

So you've come to the conclusion that an ordinary tap will work. Now the question is, what do we do with this knowledge?

[Edwin]

Now the question is, what do we do with this knowledge?

Well I think for basic Tribal airsmiths, the tap would be useful to clean out gooked up threads like feednecks (kinda something from that feedneck PBN Thread). Other than that is basically useless if your not making parts.

The problem with making a body is that the body is 8 or so inches long and you would need a 8" long bit that that is over 16" of vertical travel on a mill. I can't stand a body in my mill vice and drill that length, so making a tribal in my shop is pretty hard.

Maybe you could use a 4-Jaw chuck on a lathe and make it work, but I don't think I want to fiddle with that. It isn't that I didn't think about doing it, as I have a blank Joker extrusion from HaveBlue, so I can try. But the time isn't worth it to me. The only way that I would make a body is if I had a CNC Mill or the money to get 100 or so manufactured.

The reason for this thread is just to inform the TOG of the actual thread size for Tribals. For the few years that I have been involved with Tribal Tech, it has always been .808-28, which has drove me nuts!!! Try telling a machine shop to give you .808-28, and they will ask for a sample so they can machine the part to fit. Give them 13/16-28 and they know what to do.

The tap will be useful as you can clean loctite out, and I have seen bent threads that messed up one of my LPRC. After running a tap throught the bent area, the LPRC fit fine.

It is just another tool to help keep our Tribals alive!!!

[warpedmephisto]

Well then I thank you for bringing the tap & die sizes to our attention! :) I'm sure this will come in handy sometime whether it be for new parts manufacture, body repair, or just general knowledge.

[bakerboy4679]

The problem with making a body is that the body is 8 or so inches long and you would need a 8" long bit that that is over 16" of vertical travel on a mill. I can't stand a body in my mill vice and drill that length, so making a tribal in my shop is pretty hard.


hey, why not get an raw body, i think there made for autocockers, but same design right? that way you can even mill it to whatever pattern you wanted=== henceforth making a NEW tribal!!!

?? am i on to something? i thnk they sell on Ebay pretty cheap nowadays..

[warpedmephisto]

There's raw AKA Merlin body extrusions available on ASP's site which are darn close to a Tribal. The problem would be all off the tooling and time put into creating just one body. People would have to be willing to pay outrageous amounts just for the machinist to break even on the deal.

[Edwin]

Yeah I have a extrusion from ASP for that exact reason, but I don't think I am going to do anything with it.

TOO MUCH TIME!!!!

[warpedmephisto]

If I happen to stumble accross the tooling that would be required for a reasonable price, I'd try my hand at one, but that'd probably be the jist of it - if it ever happened.

[Edwin]

Hey Andy, maybe I should have just emailed you this info, as not too many other people are interested.

[warpedmephisto]

I guess its still a good thing to have it open to others who might be interested though (Blue, Rich, etc). I've been looking more and more at tooling for custom bodies. It'd be a bit to get it all set up, but after that, you have everything needed.

[ME262]

ive seen varience in thread size from .800-.810

as for the main bores, i drilled one side, then flipped the block on other end (with a jig i made) and drilled the other, then reamed and bores were perfect. i didnt need a long drill to do it that way, just very carfull and precise setup

but on the couple bodies i made, i just cut the threads on a lathe into the body, manually as well, i just used depth stops ad such. not really that hard.
but alas i dont have access to a lathe large enough to do it reliably on any more (at least one that doesnt cost me)

[DarkStar]

I guess its still a good thing to have it open to others who might be interested though (Blue, Rich, etc). I've been looking more and more at tooling for custom bodies. It'd be a bit to get it all set up, but after that, you have everything needed.

All this information is great for us Lurkers as well :)

[WHITEchicken]

yeahp....how much would a block of aluminum cost to make a body out of? and has anyone made a body yet withou milling and such, and if so can you post a pic?

[warpedmephisto]

Depends where you get it. If you get it from McMaster or someplace like that, its not too bad - around 20 bucks for a 1x2.5x12 piece. But if you happen to stumble accross a piece in a scrapyard it would only be a few bucks. I don't think anyone has ever made a body before. The best way would be to get an extrusion made that has 2 tubes in it and a small air passage tube (like the Merlin extrusions on ASP). That would lessen the machining time quite a bit, although you'd have to pay quite a bit to get those extrusions made up and then you have to get a mass quantity of material for the company even to agree to make the extrusions. Its just not economical on a small scale. Now if we were doing automag bodies...

[cdarnell]

just some FYI for Andy and Edwin, if you want to make a body that is not an extrusion you should be using a lathe and gun drills, gun drills are long very stiff drills that have coolant passages inside of them, that is what gunsmiths use to cut barrels and things like that. Gun drills are not cheap they run upwards of 125.00 to 250.00 per drill. And require a lathe that can handle them I have seen small gun drills that are 28" long

anyway just some FYI for you guys

Edwin thanks for the info on the tap size.

[warpedmephisto]

Yeah, I had looked at gun drills at sometime or another and thought of them for a possibility. You'd still have to use an indexible boring bar to get the correct diameter (well actually a few thou under) and then hone/polish it smooth to get the final diameter. It would still be an in depth process nonetheless. I had thought of doing a similar process but I don't need a 28" long drill to do it. I was just going to use a standard jobber length and just drill one end, flip and reindicate, then drill the other and they would meet in the middle. Then use a boring bar for cleanup. Problem with me is that I don't think my mill could handle a job like that and I don't have a lathe... yet.

[BunkerzU]

you said earlyer, that the body had to be 8 in long, that means 16 inches of travel, and di was wondering........... why?
why does the body have to be 8in long?
i am sure theres a way to get that cut down a bit.
what if the aoc was external?
this mave be a dumb one but: can the ram and valve be setup to run backwards?

[warpedmephisto]

I don't think you'd need 16" of travel. Just do the method that Rich was talking about. The body doesn't have to be 8". Stock they measure 8 7/8" long. I have seawolf's mini-Mephisto thing down to about 7 1/8" long. Note on this one I am using an external LPR and getting rid of the AOC chamber. You can't really run the ram and valve backwards otherwise the bolt would go back and the marker would fire - just the opposite of what you need. Now you could shorten the stroke of the ram, but then you'd have a Cyborg.

If just making new bodies, why not go the extra step and create an entire new marker? Then you can appeal to not only the TOG, but many others.

[BunkerzU]

by operate the ram backwards, i mean like,,,,,, revesing the air ways, but the valve still be normal, just opened when the rm returns?
and your rite, my idea is more like creating a new marker with parts from a tribal type gun. still, my imagination has run WILD!

[warpedmephisto]

That would still be backwards though. If your ram was constantly forward (without opening the valve) along with the bolt and only actuated the valve when the ram was back and the bolt in the open position, you'd have all sorts of blowback issues, along with a ball that would go hardly anywhere.

[Edwin]

If just making new bodies, why not go the extra step and create an entire new marker? Then you can appeal to not only the TOG, but many others.

AH-Ha, there you go!!! If someone was the remanufacture the Tribal, we should just build an entirely new marker with some Tribal looks. We could redesign the Tribal and add in all the features and mods that are needed and we would have the Tribal 2. Unfortunately, you can just make onezies and twozies, you have to make 1000s to make them profitable and even to have a chance at competing with the current Market. It is pretty much useless to do onezies and twozies, and it is going to take a boat load of cash to get into production.

Everything is cheaper now, and your manufacturing facility will have to be in China to compete. Your not going to build a new marker using USA labor rates, and have it available to the general public.

[BunkerzU]

its not even worth trying to sell markers anymore, SP had to screw up the markey with the Ion! :Punch:
yes i have an ion, but i still think it killed resell on all markers

[jeremy.sears]

not to worry, Ions are a phase right now, it will die down. Funny, that is what Angel owners said when all these other guns started coming out and angel resale dropped

[bakerboy4679]

Unfortunately, you can just make onezies and twozies, you have to make 1000s to make them profitable and even to have a chance at competing with the current Market.


I would think if he only made a few of them(enough for the tribe :littlede: ) that they'd be considered rare,and one of a kind, which they would be.
Then I would imagine that they would resell amazingly, because of the rarity factor.

You can ask your buyer, "Have you ever heard of the _______? Do some research, see what you find on them-- NOTHING!!...

now as for the price- $2495.00 plus tax/tag/title!!" :icon_eek:

[Edwin]

Yep that is the problem...if you were to make a small custom run, you would be looking at a ton of money!!! Who would pay $1500 for a Tribal Class marker???

Rich had it right --- with his custom machined Tribal. Something that is very, very, very uniquely machine is probably the key to getting what it is worth to you.

Custom markers are Artwork, and are not for Ion Buyers.

[BunkerzU]

not for Ion Buyers.
ouch. :Cry3:

[Edwin]

Hehe....or not for people who only want to spend $200 on a marker.