Home Anodizing???

[Edwin]

Has anyone tried home anodizing??? Something like a Caswell Kit?
Does anyone know what type of system Rich used to use for his ano jobs?

I have always thought about doing Ano, but never inested due to small quantities and or hassle.

Any input would great.

[shiftycastro]

i wouldnt mind looking into that as well.......id be willing to put in some cash if you needed it.

[Edwin]

That is a very generous offer!!!!
We are talking about a $800 investment to get started with the reverse osmosis unit, but I think I have an email from Mike at Maddman where he found a reverse-os unit cheaper.

I'll have to look.

I am hoping for advice on who difficult and time consuming it is to do these things. I'll contact rich and see if he can give some advise.

[shiftycastro]

im sure we can get a joint venture going on ........

[bullschmidt2k3]

home annodizing sounds scary... Do you just wanna do this so you can anno your lpc's and stuff? or could you do like bodies and stuff?

[ccrobbins]

Hell yeah it does.....just dont ki......wait a minute, never mind Ed I am sure you will be fine!

[Edwin]

Thanks for the vote of confidence!!! :)

The only reason why I would consider it is for Bodies and Trigger Frames. LPRC and LPC, I am planning on doing 100 at a time so it will not happen at my shop.

The main problem I have with home ano is that is take up space. I will have to see if there is a place I can do it at work (comfortably).

[bullschmidt2k3]

that would be sweet, cause then if some one ends up modding feednecks, we could anno them so the threads will be strong :)

[newbedoo]

I too often thought of home anno. I found a place in Canada that will do a whole martker up to 10 pcs for under $100 US ( $125.00) Canadian. I could not buy the chemicls needed for that! I am sure other places can be found that are that reasonble. Try www.anodizing.fx.com

newbedoo

[Edwin]

Yep there are several places that do it.

If you want to experiment with custom fades, splash, marble, or other nasty techniques, your going to pay for the artistry, not the ano.

That place will also require you to completely disassemble, and some paintball places may break it down for you.

[bullschmidt2k3]

so, would you be able to annodize stuff for the tribe? That would be cool

[Edwin]

Well yep!!!

again I have a full time job, full time family, part time life, barely time paintball, so ano would be on the short list.

Most of my paintball consists of Forum, small aftermarket parts, and cleaning my PB counter (today) so I can work on my fucking guns...

Hehe no swear filter except for one... ...***

[bullschmidt2k3]

I understand. If you end up doing anno, I'll definatly get my gun annoed from you, just to support the tribe! Also if I end up moding feednecks...

[cdarnell]

I have also been thinking I am going to get into the Anno buisness. here is the site I might go thru to get all setup and going

http://www.focuser.com/atm/anodize/anodize.html

[bullschmidt2k3]

That actually looks easier and more feasable that I thought it'd be

[bakerboy4679]

looks too complicated to me, although im a retard.. so i guess a lot of stuff iss..... anyway,.. i'll just stick to having someone else do it heh..(Edwin) lol... in due time.. in due time..

[bullschmidt2k3]

this will be really cool if you can start doing anno. I'm sure that'll turn a profit too

[Edwin]

Umm, I don't know if I agree.
Labor versus cash doesn't always = profit. I think that is the whole problem Doc is having. If he was making a boat load of money, he wouldn't be bitchin' Anodizing isn't only a metal finishing technique... ...it is artistry also, which normally a person doesn't get what he deserves for his time.

Hmmm, I just had an idea.... ....I could get my brother to do something really nice on one of my tribals as he is a real artist!!!

[bullschmidt2k3]

well, I read part of that website that ccrobbins posted, and too me it doesn't sound like that much labor once you get it setup.

[TheTramp]

I've also thought about putting together a home ano set-up. Just big enough to do small jobs. Mabey one gun at a time. Unfortunatly, as already said, space is an issue. Plus you need a good ventelation system wherever you set up.

[Eball]

Edwin...well, everyone that other place that shall remain unnamed has a section on anodizing with some really knowledgeable people on it. It's under the voided warranty section.

[Edwin]

Hmmm, I may have to go over there and check it out. (p.s. Don't tell Kaos!!!)

[Edwin]

Figures that site would timeout!!!

[Jakesak]

Haha, I see what also

[Edwin]

I did get on to the Ano section of ***, but the information was pretty limited. Rich's info was also posted from a long time ago.

[Edwin]

Ok I am Anodizing some titanium LPRC parts right now. Just past light blue, and I am at yellow right now. I will let yall know how it comes out.

[lotus_esprit5]

PM acidrain on P-B-N, he's been doing his own annos and recently started taking anno jobs from other ppl. He's got some really nice equipment supposedly, and his annos are awesome, he could probly give you some advice and info on what to get and where to get it.

[Edwin]

Ok, Thanks.

P.S. Be careful your avoiding the Swear Filter... ...I sure hope *cpt*seawolf doesn't report your ass. :)

[Edwin]

Besides the fact that I am a total fucking idiot... ...I think things came out pretty good and future Titanium Anodizing will be great!!!

All right here is a picture book of my results:

The two Titanium LPRC parts:
http://www.tribal-paintball.com/edwin247/Titanium_1.jpg

Parts in the solution with current going through:
http://www.tribal-paintball.com/edwin247/Titanium_2.jpg

Cranked up the voltage---part is turning blue
http://www.tribal-paintball.com/edwin247/Titanium_3.jpg

Cranked a little more
http://www.tribal-paintball.com/edwin247/Titanium_4.jpg

All the way up to 125V to get the far spectrum deep blue.... ....oh no!!! I really fucked these up!!!!
http://www.tribal-paintball.com/edwin247/Titanium_5.jpg

What the hell went wrong????
I did notice one thing when put the parts in deeper the current went up. So I thought maybe the SS wire had something to do with it, since it was bubbling and all. I emailed Mr.Titanium, and I called the welding supply shop for titanium wire. They didn't have any titanium wire, and my email didn't get replied to before I thought... ...hey what if I insulate the wire, SO


Back to the beginning...
Sand and polish parts to remove as much of that gray shit off!!!!
Put some shrink tubing over the SS wire to insulate as much as possible of exposed SS.
Attach the Parts, and back into the tank...
Almost instantaneously, the part went from natural titanium color to blue without any current draw. It was amazing!!!! Before I was drawing any where from 4 to14 amps of current, and now... ...it was so quick I didn't even see the current on the meter!!!

http://www.tribal-paintball.com/edwin247/Titanium_6.jpg

http://www.tribal-paintball.com/edwin247/Titanium_7.jpg

It should be easy to Ano Titanium now... Too bad paintball markers arn't made of Titanium!!!

[TheTramp]

Why would someone ano Ti? Is it just for the color or is there a surface reason?

I know Al needs ano to give it some surface strength but I thought Ti was scratch resistant already.

P.S. Just looking for info not giving you a hard time.

[Edwin]

Just for the color.
Titanium will oxide a little but it isn't noticeable.

Don't you think a blue LPRC would look nice?

This set up is also easy and I wanted to try this before messing with Aluminum Ano, which seems like a severe pain in the ass.

Also, I have everything at my disposal here at work (except for TSP --- home depot had that) to try it.

mrtitanium.com site is where I got the information. It was helpful enough that I made a small donation ($5.00)

My LPRC is currently on my Mephy, but once I get another marker set up with a Titanium LPRC, I will make it match the marker (red or blue)

[bullschmidt2k3]

wait... you're already doing some anno?

[shiftycastro]

edwin ill send a titanium lprc and you can try the yellow...... if you want a guinea pig

[Edwin]

edwin ill send a titanium lprc and you can try the yellow...... if you want a guinea pig

Otay ship it to me, and I will try to make it yellow.

[jeremy.sears]

and ya should have my two front caps soon (light blue and purple)

[Edwin]

wait... you're already doing some anno?

This is my first attempt, and Titanium looked much easier than aluminum because there is only one step.

No Dye
No Sealer
No stupid equations
Just some good electric sense.


I am not saying everyone can do it, but it is more likely that you can Ano Titanium than Aluminum.

Well from what I have read on the subject.

Again, to bad everything isn't made out of titanium!!!

[XtraBoy]

Are you already starting it? a friend of mine just starting doing anno and has been practicing on spyder bodies (good idea for you to stock up on them)

Post up your questions and i'll have him come in here and answer

[Ducky]

hey, if u want some alu to practice on... i have the milled tribal body... ill send that to ya if u wanna try it... let me know so i can get it all rdy and everything...

i have a tourny tomarrow, saturday, so ill send it next week if ya wanna try something....

EDIT: oh yeah... didnt u say u could do milling?? maybe i could have u clean up the milling just a bit... :D let me know....

[lotus_esprit5]

just don't start on gun bodies until you've done some other stuff first. practice on random pieces of aluminum and stuff first. maybe if you have spoons or something that are aluminum, you can turn them into rasta spoons! anyway its just good to experiment to see how long you have to soak pieces in the dye to get certain shades how to do fades and stuff, so its best to experiment on parts you dont care about. I think acidrain practiced on like 20 or 30 scrap parts before he actually started doing paintball stuff.

[Edwin]

Hmmm, come on boys... ...do you really think I would start on a paintball marker with a quad-fade, splash, acid washed sponge effect on the very first piece???

I already have a Bare Joker extrusion for ASP, and a damaged mephy body to practice on. I also have a shop full of 6061 Aluminum, and I won't practice on our Fine Dinning Aluminum forks, knives, and spoons either. :)

I know yall are just trying to help, but yall sure know how to damage my fragile ego... :(

Anyway I research, read, make a list, purchase the right stuff, then practice before I even attempt anything real!!! Titanium was pretty easy, but I believe Aluminum is 10x (maybe 5x) harder.

Have faith boys!!!

As for the "FREE PRACTICE" markers, sure I will take some practice bodies with one rule... ...when I am finished practicing, I am finished. Don't complain or post how fucked up or bad my ano is... ...as it will be free anyway.

I will let you know when I start taking "FREE" ano jobs even if I do some free ones.

Now I need to go drown my sorrows in a tub of beer!!!

:Cry3:

[Jakesak]

Now I need to go drown my sorrows in a tub of beer!!!

:Cry3:

Ah, taking the ol' jakesak route. Good times.

[bullschmidt2k3]

I guess a free, ugly anno is better than no anno... almost

[CrazyLemurBoy]

First off, Anodizing is creating a porous/non-porous layer on Aluminum only... it's not quite the same thing for Ti.

Second, I do anodizing myself and for my shop, a customer reffered me to this site saying they have some questions about this, and I've been doing it for a while, so shoot.

Third, I have no tribal and never plan on owning one.

[Edwin]

Thanks for joining the TOG!!! :)

OK here is a question:
For home ano, they mention using aquarium air pumps in the baths. Is this just for agitation? Would it be better to use a pump to circulate the bath instead of air??? I read somewhere that air bubble on the part is bad... ...so why do they add air bubbles???

Will a sub-pump work in the ano bath? Something like a sub-pump for a live well in a boat?

[warpedmephisto]

Now you've got me interesting in anodizing, so I talked to a local shop that does anodizing. They set me up with their services, so now I offer anodizing services. Check out my site for more details.

[Edwin]

Now you've got me interesting in anodizing, so I talked to a local shop that does anodizing. They set me up with their services, so now I offer anodizing services. Check out my site for more details.

Andy, you need to put your site in your sig so we can find it "more easy" :)

[bullschmidt2k3]

cool, looks like they do nice work except I don't like how their fades are. The only nice looking fade on there is the a-bomb

[warpedmephisto]

I talked to him about the fades and he said he can do ones like the A-bomb timmy no problem, he just has to know how long the customer wants the fade to be.

[Edwin]

Yeah I like long fades, not ones that look like a two-tone effect.

They should be able to do anything!!!

[CrazyLemurBoy]

The agitation helps to stir up the electrolyte, in conventional anodizing baths sulfuric acid is used. The air bubbles are not a neccessity, nor is stirring it up, but it does help with consistency. I wouldn't suggest using a pump unless it can handle acid coursing through its veins...

A key factor many people forget is keeping your anodizing solution cool. Too hot and the anodizing becomes too thin and inconsistent. For type II anodizing keep it between 60-72*F.

Also, another electrolyte you can use is chromic acid in lue of the sulfuric acid... anyone venture why?
Edit: I know why, just trying to keep your attention.

[bullschmidt2k3]

oh, that's cool. I really like the long, gradual fades, like on the a-bomb

[Edwin]

The agitation helps to stir up the electrolyte, in conventional anodizing baths sulfuric acid is used. The air bubbles are not a neccessity, nor is stirring it up, but it does help with consistency. I wouldn't suggest using a pump unless it can handle acid coursing through its veins...

A key factor many people forget is keeping your anodizing solution cool. Too hot and the anodizing becomes too thin and inconsistent. For type II anodizing keep it between 60-72*F.

Also, another electrolyte you can use is chromic acid in lue of the sulfuric acid... anyone venture why?
Edit: I know why, just trying to keep your attention.

I'll give it a shot without even searching the internet... ...How about this: Chromic acid provides better conductivity therefore quicker anodizing of the parts.

The temperature thing is going to be a problem for us homebrewers as the ambient temp in New Orleans is over 72*F !!!!

Hey I want to put a temp probe in my bath to connect to a digital read out. What type metal should the probe be??? Is SS ok?

[Edwin]

I couldn't wait for a reply!!!

I was going to say temperature, and look what I found on a website>>>>

Utilizing a chromic acid electrolyte this form of anodizing yields the thinnest coatings, only .05 to .1 mils thick. Chromic anodizing is a good choice when a part is complex and difficult to rinse because chromic acid is less corrosive than sulfuric acid used in other anodizing methods. Chromic anodize also reduces the fatigue strength of the aluminum less than the other methods described.

Chromic anodize is formed by using an electrolytic solution of chromic acid that is about 100° F and a density of 1.5 to 4.5 A/ft2. The process will run for 40 to 60 minutes. This will produce a clear to gray coating, depending on sealing and alloy used, that is about 2 µm.

Advantages:

Chromic anodize offers a minimum of 336 hours 5% salt spray resistance . It is not as durable as sulphuric acid or Hard anodizing and does not accept dyes as well as sulphuric acid anodizing. Due to the low thickness, it can be an advantage of parts with tight tolerances. Also, since chromic acid is less aggressive towards aluminum than the sulfuric acid , it should be used in parts that are difficult to rinse such as welded and riveted assemblies.

Materials:

Most alloys are suitable for chromic anodizing. Exceptions would be high-silicone die-cast alloys and high-copper alloys. Basically, an alloy with more than 5% Cu, 7% Si, or 7.5% of alloying elements should not be used.

[Edwin]

Looks like sulfuric anodizing is still better for our application since it appears to be better with colors since it is a slightly thicker anodizing layer.

[CrazyLemurBoy]

Right, although the thickness doesn't determine the hardness. To cool the bath, DO NOT USE STAINLESS STEEL. Nothing, I repeat, NOTHING, besides glass, titanium, aluminum, acid, and lead should be used in the bath, but I may be leaving a few other materials that can be used, steel is the worst thing you could put in the bath. Once I had a C-Clamp fall in the bath I was using to hold a cathode in place, and it corroded heavily in 30 minutes. It will leave a nice black mark and screw up the ano bath, galvanizing and all sorts of nastyness. Again, one would use chromic acid if they do not want to disturb the surface of the aluminum and want to create a non-conductive coating, and it gives off a nice shiny finish since it doesnt attack the aluminum.

[Edwin]

Thanks for the info.
I think we need thickness, not for harndess, but for more dye to absorb into. The Chromic sound slike a great choice for clear polished ano!!!

Hey, I can get my hands on some titanium plates for Cathodes. Do you think this is a good idea or should I stick with lead plates???

Thanks,
Edwin

[Edwin]

I also have another question.

I have heard that you can leave little carbon steel set screws in place (4-40 x 3/16" long and maybe some 6-32) and the ano bath will burn right through them!!! Is this true??? I know you said above that you shouldn't have anything Carbon Steel, but will it disolve it that quick?

[TheTramp]

Now that would be a great way to get those little f'ers out! No more stripped allen key holes and you could pop a nice SS set in after the ano.

[warpedmephisto]

I think if you do enough of them that way you will contaminate your bath and have to change it more often. I know for a fact that anything not AL or TI in the bath will get eaten, including carbon steel set screws.

BTW - I have SS grub screw kits available on my site.

[CrazyLemurBoy]

Yes, it is true. It will eat right through steel. My C-Clamp is proof of that. Do not leave the steel in the bath, it will do all sorts of nasty things to your finish. Galvanising and such will take place. Lead doesn't get attacked by the bath, at any good rate. I know someone who has been using lead cathodes for 4 years in the same bath, and he never takes them out. I would suggest against Ti cathodes, I think they would corrode too quickly to be economical.

For any metal supply, try www.mcmaster.com That is where I get my raw materials.

[TheTramp]

I guess you could make up a small batch of solution to get out a few stubborn grub screws here and there but it's a shame you can't do it all the time.

[Edwin]

Yeah a small tank (1 gallon) of concentrated H2SO4 could be used break the grub screws down quicker, and have a seperate tank for aluminum that doesn't get contaminated.

I went shopping for Ice Chests last night.

[Edwin]

Ok, my first addition to my Small Scale Ano Shop.

A NICE HP6434B DC Power Supply 0-40V with 0-25A capabilities. Constant Voltage or Constant Current operations. It should be real easy to regulate the current with this nice pwer supply.

http://www.tribal-paintball.com/edwin247/hp6434b.jpg

I just got it off ebay, so it is going to take about a week to make it to me, but it is a start.

Next on the list are my Ice Chests
A small air conditioner, since my shop rarely see 72*F in the summer!!!
Then the chemical and dyes.

I should have a complete working system in about 2-3 months.

[bullschmidt2k3]

sweet, good to see that it's goin

[warpedmephisto]

Awesome, Edwin. Looks like you're well on your way to the anodizing process!

[TheTramp]

Wow, you're not kidding around. That's a powerfull system.

[CrazyLemurBoy]

Wow, big supply there. I use a 13.8V 25 amp power supply... all that voltage isn't neccessary. I wouldn't use more then 24V if I were you.

[bakerboy4679]

Wow, big supply there. I use a 13.8V 25 amp power supply... all that voltage isn't neccessary. I wouldn't use more then 24V if I were you.

do you do annoe jobs?

[CrazyLemurBoy]

I've debated it for some time, but I don't want to spam these boards. If one of the moderators says its ok... I would gladly list my paintball shop and services.

[Edwin]

CLB, I actually wanted a higher voltage range some go all the way up to 140V. The reason why is I want to have the capabilites to run Aluminum and Titanium with the same power supply. If I run across a higher voltage unit with the current I want, then I will pick it up, and sell this one on Ebay.

I've debated it for some time, but I don't want to spam these boards. If one of the moderators says its ok... I would gladly list my paintball shop and services.

You are more than welcome to post your services in this forum:

http://www.tribal-paintball.com/tog/forumdisplay.php?f=26

We could always use good support for the Tribe!!!

[CrazyLemurBoy]

I would love to post something, but I have nothing in particular for tribals... as for the power supply, I don't do titanium jobs, so it sounds great. Good luck with the titanium, although it might be better to just get 2 seperate supplies.

[Edwin]

If you offer Paintball anodizing, you can post that!

[CrazyLemurBoy]

Eh, not yet. I'm really weighing the decision right now, I'm in a bad place. I have the "doc nickel" effect.

[warpedmephisto]

I did too, but I just halted work for a little while. Now its getting to the point where I want to get some guns in to pay for my CNC.

[jeremy.sears]

lol well warped you will have a little bit of money once my twister is done *hint* *hint* :D

[CrazyLemurBoy]

Good luck warped, but I've found people don't pay squat for paintball work. Industrial milling is where its at.

[Edwin]

Ok my power supply arrived yesterday, and I had to make sure it works since it was an Ebay Purchase. Well I hooked it up to a 1 ohm 250 watt resistor, and sure enough I was able to crank it up to 25 Amp!!! Excellent!!!!

Now I just need to start buying everything else!!!

[CrazyLemurBoy]

Yay! Get titanium for racking, it will save you big time.

[Edwin]

Shifty, your a lucky bastard!!! Your Titanium LPRC came out really great!!! What a Bright ass yellow!!! That shit almost glows!!!

My Blue however came out like shit, so I had to try the blues at the higher voltage levels and I missed the blue and now I have a psycodelic (sp) blue/green/purple/yellow pearldescent type color. It definately is neet, but I don't have a Marker to match!!!!












I bet this post would be better with pictures, right??? :D

[bakerboy4679]

I'd take one anycolor.. gimme a price :bdaybigg: hehe

[Edwin]

Sorry, but I only made 2 Titanium LPRC, and I got hard up for cash so Shifty bought one from me. I wish I didn't sell it, but it's too late now!!!

I was almost tempted to make two yellows as that color is so brilliant.

I'll post some pics when I get home.

[bakerboy4679]

aww.. :Cry1:

Ok.. cant wait to see some pics though..

[Edwin]

Ok, here are a couple pictures:

This one was taken inside:
http://www.tribal-paintball.com/edwin247/sample_products_001.jpg

This one was taken outside but not in direct sunlight:
http://www.tribal-paintball.com/edwin247/sample_products_003.jpg

The green one is the one that is multi-colored, but it is showing up mostly green here due to the light. You can really see purple, yellow, and blue in the sunlight with your eyes, but it doesn't photograph well.

I guess it is a good thing that Shifty's LPRC came out perfect, and mine is mostly green. What the fuck am I to do now??? I guess I need to strip a Tribal and get it Anoed Green.... .....not my favorite color, but I guess I can have a green Tribal. :( :)

[bullschmidt2k3]

I would sooooo get my tribal annoed that crazy green... lemme know if you want one for experimenting...

[warpedmephisto]

Can Titanium be re-anodized? I know the process is a bit different from AL anodizing, but I wasn't sure.

[can'tthink of1]

Is the blue thing a ram lol?

Otherwise, from what I can tell, it all looks very nice. I'll await the black lprc to be finished. :)

[XtraBoy]

haha, i can imagine edwin doing that

"Come on you stupid thing, green!!! *cranks voltage meeter way up* Oh crap... *turns off machine* uhh"

hahah

[Edwin]

haha, i can imagine edwin doing that

"Come on you stupid thing, green!!! *cranks voltage meeter way up* Oh crap... *turns off machine* uhh"

hahah

Haha, actual it was more like "Is that blue? Maybe a little more voltage, is that blue? A little more voltage, is that blue? Little more voltage, aw man, shit, shit, that is purple green something :eek: "

[Edwin]

Is the blue thing a ram lol?

Otherwise, from what I can tell, it all looks very nice. I'll await the black lprc to be finished. :)

Nope they are two LPRC parts. One is a Cap (like on the green LPRC) and the other is an ajustment knob for the LPRC (Like on the yellow LPRC). I just screwed them together. I used those to test the Titanium Anodizing process.

[bullschmidt2k3]

so, how far away are you from doign aluminum?

[Edwin]

About $800.00 :(

Time-wise, it all depends on how fast I can get together that money. Right now parts aren't selling that fast, and I have to invest money into manufacturing parts so I can complete the LPRCs for people who are waiting. So I don't really know. I would like to get started this coming week, but it may be more like 1-2 months. Maybe even more as I am going out of town in April-May, then in June to D-Day.

[can'tthink of1]

If it would help, I could send the money soon even if it isn't finished, that way I know I paid for the parts I need, and go worry about all this other stuff I need to buy.

[Edwin]

Please feel free, but you don't have to. I have all the parts for the LPRC being manufactured now, and as soon as they are finished I will polish and send to Ano.

Hopefully a couple weeks.

[bakerboy4679]

How much are these Ano'ed lprc's going for? or are you selling them yet?

[Edwin]

They are $115.00 each.

[can'tthink of1]

Please feel free, but you don't have to. I have all the parts for the LPRC being manufactured now, and as soon as they are finished I will polish and send to Ano.

Hopefully a couple weeks.

Well, I thought the money would help out and possibly speed up. And also, I figure if I get my money in now, I don't have to wait and then send the money, so I get it right when its done.

As, I'm gonna get a ss asa screw, and a ram spring, all on top of this defective bolt, which I believe is delrin so I'll add 5 more in for a teflon impregnated bolt. Give me a shipped price on all of this, and I'll try and get a money order out soon.

[shiftycastro]

the yellow did come out good

[jeremy.sears]

I think those look awesome!!! I hope the aluminum ones come out as nice. ( I really hope he can do the trifade purple and the light blue of my twister)

[Edwin]

Jeremy, the blue your talking about (is that one of the AOC caps you sent me???) looks like a Gun Metal AOC cap???

[jeremy.sears]

yes that is the one

[Edwin]

Bought a couple 28 quart Ice Chest today at Wallyworld.

I am tossing around the idea of a chem. pump, an aluminum oil cooler and some tubing to circulate and cool my ano bath. The aluminum radiator would be placed in a ice chest with water and Ice kinda like a keg cooling coil (you know what I am talking about Jake!!!).

I am pretty concerned about the 72* ano bath as I rarely see 72* in my shop, and what is the best way to cool the bath???

[Jakesak]

Actually, you dont need to cool the keg when you drink it fast enough...
How do you have to keep it at 72*?

[cdarnell]

Bought a couple 28 quart Ice Chest today at Wallyworld.

I am tossing around the idea of a chem. pump, an aluminum oil cooler and some tubing to circulate and cool my ano bath. The aluminum radiator would be placed in a ice chest with water and Ice kinda like a keg cooling coil (you know what I am talking about Jake!!!).

I am pretty concerned about the 72* ano bath as I rarely see 72* in my shop, and what is the best way to cool the bath???

Edwin you need to cool it with a liquid cooler for some form maybe an auto AC unit. if you go with the chems from Caswell they have less sulferic in them and the temp is not a problem from what they say.

[Edwin]

Yeah that is what I am trying to figure out.

What is the best way to keep it cool????

This is another reason why I didn't like the Ano book that we bought. He didn't go into enough detail on that section for me. He uses an AC window unit to keep his bath cool, well how long does it take to get a 5 gal setup to 70* if your at 90*???? Does he just keep it running all day and night to keep it at 70*???? How many amps can you run with the AC on to keep the bath at the right temperature????

I also thought about just running a Boat Water Pump to circulate ICE water into an aluminum coil in the ano bath, just to keep it cold. This way nothing Acidic is pumped.

But if I pump the Acid, then I can get cooling and circulation at the same time, which will eliminate the need for air pumps.

I am not familiar with Alcohol pumps. You got any links???

[TheTramp]

I also thought about just running a Boat Water Pump to circulate ICE water into an aluminum coil in the ano bath, just to keep it cold. This way nothing Acidic is pumped.



I think this would be a good way to go but you have to worry about the Al not lasting that long if it's "anno'd" again and again each batch. What about homebrew hose. I think that that hose is acid resistent. I'm just not sure how well the cold will come out of it.

On the other hand, you dont want the liquide too cold or the bath will go well below 72*.

[Edwin]

Well I think I am going with Acid Pump, as I have been reading up on the caswell forum.

[TheTramp]

I think that if you've got a safe way to do it (which I'm sure you do) then that's got to be the simplest/most cost effective/ most efficent way to go.

[cdarnell]

Edwin,
I just sent you an Email with some more info

the point I was making is that with caswell's LCD system because there is less acid in the anno bath there is not residual heat build up while it is running, I would do some test runs at your shop temp 80-90 degrees and see the results before you dump a bunch of cash into a system you might not need.

[bullschmidt2k3]

well how long does it take to get a 5 gal setup to 70* if your at 90*????

ooohh... if I wasn't on spring break and had my chemistry book with me I could figure that out for you...we just did specific heat equations a while ago... but I don't have my book... oh well...

[Edwin]

ooohh... if I wasn't on spring break and had my chemistry book with me I could figure that out for you...we just did specific heat equations a while ago... but I don't have my book... oh well...

Hmmm, I think it is a little more complicated than that. :) You need to know a rate at which the air conditioner can cool.... ....you know how much of that cool air is actual transmitted through a insulated ice chest and actually gets to the liquid that is inside.

I bet they just turn the AC on to cool it overnight, or best case some sort of thermostat that is submerged in the tank.

[Edwin]

Here is a procedure list from a guy on the caswell forum

You are using the exact same CD, ano time, acid ratio and temperature as I am.
I have great results after dialing in my prep process. Something I always do now is etch (red devil lye) and de-smut. This seems to help get the parts down to virgin aluminum for trouble free anodizing and dyeing. Here is my process:

Degrease in lacquer thinner, blow dry with compressed air.
Etch in 70F Red Devil lye in 3gal water for a few minutes (more to strip old ano from parts). Rinse with distilled water.
De-smut @ 110F for a few minutes until bright white, rinse with distilled water.
Repeat those steps if any discoloration remains.
Prepare finish... bead blast or polish.
Rack the parts.
Degrease in lacquer thinner, blow dry with compressed air.
Only handle parts with gloved hands from this step forward.
Clean with 140F SP degreaser, rinse withy distilled water, check with water break test.
Immediately anodize the parts.
Rinse with distilled water.
Dunk in distilled water/baking soda neutralizer tank.
Rinse with distilled water.
Dye parts in filtered 140F dye solution for 15min (or less if lighter color is desired).
Rinse with distilled water.
Seal with filtered 200F nickel acetate solution for 20min.
Rinse with distilled water as the parts come out of the sealer (don't let the sealer dry on the parts).
Finish the sealed ano with WD40 and wipe clean.

By chance are you anodizing paintball gun parts? Which parts give you the most problems? Are they repeatedly the same problems?

[warpedmephisto]

Whats up with the last step with the WD40? I have never ever heard of that. All of the rest sounds about right though - from what I know of the process. Seems like he does some extra preparation to very thoroughly clean and keep clean the parts inbetween steps. Seems like a lot of work if you're not mass-producing stuff. Still up to the task, Edwin? :)

[Edwin]

Yeah it seems like a pain in the ass!!! I guess that is why they get 100-400 a marker!!! This guy actually does paintball markers, so it seems like he knows his stuff.

I plan on keeping it small (relatively speaking as it take several tank to even do it!!!) and for custom colors only as Clear, Blue, Red, Black are easy for normal Ano Companies to do. I don't plan on doing 1000s of parts, just a PB marker here and there. AND this is the whole problem with setting up a line!!!

Shit I don't know!!! It does sound like a big pain in the ass!!! I might just try it without all the cooling stuff.

I wish PB markers were made out of Titanium as it is one step (after prep)!!!

[warpedmephisto]

Well in that case you can just start cranking out titanium bodies and parts all you want! :D

[Edwin]

Haha!!! I wish. :)

I don't think I would sell many as that would probably double my cost, and therefore increase pricing. :(

[XtraBoy]

yea, anno'ing actually isnt very expensive. Lemur offered to do one of my would-be tribals for ~40, 2 colors... Its just all the prep and everything

[Edwin]

yea, anno'ing actually isnt very expensive. Lemur offered to do one of my would-be tribals for ~40, 2 colors... Its just all the prep and everything

Exactly!!! How many people will send you a PB marker completely torn down, stripped of old Ano, polished and ready for the Ano bath????

If the prep work was done, then 40 sounds fair, but there are several hours of work needed to get the marker ready for a new ano and color scheme, and this is what you pay for!!!!

When I send bare aluminum parts to ano, they get done very economically. It is just like any other labor job, if I have to put 5 hours of work to get it complete then your paying for that time.

Also something that I didn't even mention...... .......I don't even think I am going to offer Ano Services anyway. This setup is mainly for my own tinkering. Maybe I will do a few jobs for the Tribe, but I don't plan on doing it as a general service, as I don't have the time, and I don't like sleeping in the dog house!!!

[DarkStar]

Yeah that is what I am trying to figure out.

What is the best way to keep it cool????

This is another reason why I didn't like the Ano book that we bought. He didn't go into enough detail on that section for me. He uses an AC window unit to keep his bath cool, well how long does it take to get a 5 gal setup to 70* if your at 90*???? Does he just keep it running all day and night to keep it at 70*???? How many amps can you run with the AC on to keep the bath at the right temperature????

I also thought about just running a Boat Water Pump to circulate ICE water into an aluminum coil in the ano bath, just to keep it cold. This way nothing Acidic is pumped.

But if I pump the Acid, then I can get cooling and circulation at the same time, which will eliminate the need for air pumps.

I am not familiar with Alcohol pumps. You got any links???

You might want to do some research into how the guys that water cool their computers do it. There will be lots of good DIY info there. www.hardocp.com for example would be a good place to start.

To start you off they use pond fountain pumps(I bought one off the shelf at one of those Mega Pet stores like PETCO or something) and car radiators. Some people have had success using one of those dorm sized mini-fridges. You can usually find a used one cheap or free.

If your ambitious you can take the whole thing apart and drop the freezer compenent into your cooling tank.

Otherwise you can just stick your radiator into the fridge unit and run lines out to your coil.

Good Luck
-MR

(btw where do you live? if it's really dry/warm you could try some kind of evaporative cooling method)

[TheTramp]

Some people have had success using one of those dorm sized mini-fridges. You can usually find a used one cheap or free.


This would also be good for storing all the extra "shop" beers.

[Edwin]

Yeah, I'll save the mini-fridge for my beer and when I get tanked up, I will start my sulfuric acid work!!! :Nervous:

The guys at Caswell turned me on to a Salt Water Fish Tank Cooler that has a Titanium Heat Exchanger!!! Little expensive, but worth the reduction in design/effort!!!

[DarkStar]

Yeah, I'll save the mini-fridge for my beer and when I get tanked up, I will start my sulfuric acid work!!! :Nervous:

The guys at Caswell turned me on to a Salt Water Fish Tank Cooler that has a Titanium Heat Exchanger!!! Little expensive, but worth the reduction in design/effort!!!

Sounds Cool, Got a link?

[Edwin]

http://www.aquastealth.com/

http://www.aquastealth.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=93&HS=1

[bullschmidt2k3]

I've decided that I'm going to make a spimmy, so if you want something to experiment with and don't want to worry what it looks like (as long as it's still functional) you can anno the body and trigger frame for me :)

[Edwin]

Hahaha, I bet I will get a lot people who wants to send me their markers as "test" markers.

I might take in a few test markers, but what I won't do is disassemble, reassemble and test. Why you may ask??? Well if I had all that extra time I would have at least assembled and tested some of my marker!!!.

Hmmm, that reminds me I need to go loctite about 10 rams together.... ...where's my red loctite I brought home from work???

[bullschmidt2k3]

yea, I don't care what it looks like, I'll dissadembly it, maybe even strip anno if I can figure out how. All I want is so there isn't raw aluminum when it's done. Even if it turns out to be poop brown it's all good.

[jeremy.sears]

I have no problem with a complete dissassemble if ya ever need a test marker :D LMK (yeah you were right we come out the wood works when some one mentions anno)

[Edwin]

How am I going to pay for my system if all I do is free work for yall???

[bullschmidt2k3]

very very carefully?

cheap anno is good too

[DarkStar]

How am I going to pay for my system if all I do is free work for yall???

Make it up in Volume?

[bullschmidt2k3]

Make it up in Volume?

lol, I like your thinking...

[jeremy.sears]

I didnt mention free lol just willing to be a test bed Id pay for it of course

[bullschmidt2k3]

yea, I'll pay too, but not as much if he's still "testing"

[Edwin]

I hear yall.

I wouldn't expect for anyone to pay much for "testing", but since you can only anodize PB markers a couple times, I don't think I will be working on markers until I have my shit together, and know exactly how to make it work.

Anodizing is pretty scientific, you setup your apparatus, follow a procedure, and it is done. The hard part of PBmarkers is the artistry of blends, masks, and all the neet things you can do with the colors. A basic solid color should be pretty easy, and as you see I am doing my research first!!!

[BunkerzU]

So, Edwin, what is the latetest on your ano setup, have you gotten better?
have you REALY messed up a gun yet?
have you shocked your self with that big'ol power supply?
are you sterile?
let us know

[goose]

i am curious as to weather the anno dye can be sprayed like through an airbrush before you cook it so to speak...just curious is all

[Edwin]

No progress on the Ano line yet. I have a lot of parts I need to pay my Machine shop for so I think it will be a few months down the line.

Yes it can be prayed with an airbrush.

[ME262]

it can be sprayed, but the dye must be thickened, you can actually paint as if painting with watercolors. ive only done a few, i did one cocker with stars and stuff on it..long time ago, but didnt do it much, most people just go for fades and such

isnt that much voltage to get shocked by, 8-14 volts..........

[WHITEchicken]

so hows this going now. its been 2 months, i am trying to join the tribe again, and just wanting to know.

[goose]

how do they get the marble effect with all the different colors? i have seen them with anywhere from 3 to 6 colors marbelized so to speak and i figured they had some kind of methode to do this...the only reason i ask about spraying is cause my brother does some awsome tribal designs and my mom airbrushes so i though just maybee i could get my brother to work up a design then get it shot and cook it but i can forsee that it would require a fair amount of time and money inveted to get it set up....just a hairbrain idea was all